What is a Bespoke Tailor?

This week I go behind the scenes of my own business, Theodore 1922:  how I started, how I very nearly went bankrupt and how one man changed everything.  Pasquale started tailoring at 6 years old...yes, you read that right: 6 years old!
So what is a Bespoke Tailor?  And who is Pasquale Buonjourno?

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Miranda Black: I am Miranda Black. And this is What's This Place? the show that takes you behind the bricks and mortar of small businesses. Now this week, I'm going to take you behind the scenes of my own business, theodore 1922. Not many people know that it was never actually my intention to own a men's clothing store. I had zero experience in tailored clothing. I had worked a lot in women's retail, but the truth is, I was an actress. That's how come I worked so much retail: because retail's a way to make ends meet. I had always had a fantasy of owning a store. I imagined that once I made it as an actress, I was going to own a funky vintage clothing store with a vegetarian restaurant. And I would have a Villa in Italy. These were the very large dreams of a 20 year old. 

Now as luck or unluck would have it, I met someone who wanted to open a men's clothing store. And I had just done this movie with Jimmy Fallon and drew Barrymore called Fever Pitch, check it out. And I figured why not? 

This could be a great solution to making money between gigs. And I'm a go getter. So I got a business plan together. I invested my drew Barrymore movie money. I got a loan from my father, as well as a promissory note, that I clear my debt with him in five years. But I was never going to be selling the clothing. It was tailored suits, which I knew nothing about, and it was not my dream. I was going to be back of house cause I was good at bookkeeping, 

great at PR and marketing and all that other stuff, but no clothing. The partner was the seller, the buyer, the one who had the men's clothing knowledge.

This would be my between gig job that funded my acting career. And it could have worked on a different timeline in an alternate universe. 

But it didn't. And when the partner left under pretty crappy circumstances, he left with all the knowledge of menswear. All the buying experience, all the everything that makes a men's wear store work. And I was left with a two year non-negotiable lease agreement I had personally guaranteed a maxed out line of credit. A loan to my father. 

Over a hundred thousand dollars in bills to vendors and a store full of luxury men's clothing that I did not know how to sell. All of this debt in my name. I was in deep, small business. Do-do. Well, my father is not a rich man. He's on a fixed income. And I had sworn to him that I would be paying him back in five years. 

So as we stood in the store, Me in tears and him just shaking his parental head and regret. And I am so devastated and heartbroken at the time. And there was no way I was going to be able to pay back all these people. I was going to go bankrupt. But my father says to me: 

You're an actress. Can you just act as if you know how to sell all this crap? But I said, I don't know how to sell a suit! I don't even know what these numbers mean!! Because it was all European sizing. But then he says, Could you do it for me? I would really like to get my money out of this and it's sitting here, right in front of us. You just have to turn these suits. Into dollars. Could you try it for a week? 

Whew. So. He showed up every day, that week, just in time to open the gate, check the voicemails, there weren't ever any, and we'd sit there looking at all the thousand dollars suits. I was so lucky, now that I look back over the 13 years, that the first person to walk through that door was a genuinely lovely human being. And I know that because I grew to know him and his whole family over the duration of the store. But when I think of all the type a holes that could have walked in and who inevitably did walk in, 

I was so lucky that it was this man. 

I remember this day so clearly It was beautiful and sunny outside. He brought his wife and she had this happy energy and he is this guy with a generous spirit. And I, I am this actress with a little tape measure and pins, pretending that I know what I'm doing. So. I look at him in the suit. And I realized that I can see how it can fit him better. 

It was a gift I did not know I had. The problem was, I had no idea how to translate what I was seeing to my tailor, who worked downstairs in the tailor shop. I had seen the partner selling suits and making these marks on the suit with a tailor's chalk. So I acted as if! I made flourishes with the chalk that we're really just a bunch of hieroglyphs. But I made detailed notes on what I was seeing and how I would like it to change. And the whole time I acted my little heart out. I was a tailor. I knew how to sell a suit. And guys, I made the sale. I lowered the red that day. 

[00:05:27] Miranda Black: But then I took the garments downstairs to my tailor Pasquale Buongiorno.

He's an Italian bespoke tailor, like the real deal. His essence is tailor. And prior to that, I'd never really dealt with him other than scheduling or payments, stuff like that. I had no idea whether he would take my scrawled notes and tell me he can't possibly work this way and walk out the door. 

So I read out what I'd written down and he was quiet. And then he said, 

This is the mark you make on the suit for this note. And the pinning, it's not bad, but this is a better way to lay pins, like this. And this is how you... and slowly... I'm going to get choked up.... he taught me everything I know about suits. 

Well today, my interview is with Pasquale Buongiorno, a bespoke Italian tailor who put up with this actress, faking it until she was making it. The guy who made it possible for me to keep my doors open and pay down all my debts. So who is Pasquale Buongiorno and what is a bespoke tailor? 

Let me take your coat.

How are the roads 

[00:06:43] Pasquale Buonjourno: is not bad. 

[00:06:44] Miranda Black: Yeah? Um, Pasquale, do you want sugar? 

[00:06:46] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. A little bit, little sugar.

[00:06:48] Miranda Black: do you want a cookie? 

[00:06:49] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, no, no, no. I had already breakfast and was it's enough. 

Before we get into the meat and potatoes. Here are a few notes. This was recorded way back in February, 2020, right before the world shut I had invited Pasquale to come over and talk about his life as a tailor, how he started, how he came to Canada and Stephanie Almeda, my store manager, although manager doesn't really cover it. She was my store, everything. She was there too. It was a snowy afternoon in February. It was kind of a magical afternoon. And it took me a long time to be able to listen to this interview and edit. Because it's such a time capsule of right before everything shut down. Like two weeks before. At one point He even mentioned that Italy has two cases, but that it's under control. But. Yeah, Italy too. It's not another big problem over there. everything is under their control.just a couple.

[00:07:48] Miranda Black: they, but they catch it right away already when they, when it happened. I wanna hear I, I know a lot of these questions. 

[00:07:56] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. 

[00:07:56] Miranda Black: But how did you start tailoring clothing? How old were you? 

[00:08:00] Pasquale Buonjourno: Okay, let's start from the beginning.

I was six years old when I start. Back home those days, there was elementary school, but only up to grade five

[00:08:09] Miranda Black: Uhhuh. 

[00:08:10] Pasquale Buonjourno: And there was only half a day so half a day at school and half a day, my mother took me to a tailor shop just to stay there to save me from going around like, you know, 

[00:08:20] Miranda Black: getting into trouble? 

[00:08:21] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. Getting in trouble. So they start to teach me how to do the, the surging by, by hand.

[00:08:27] Miranda Black: Oh, wow. 

[00:08:28] Pasquale Buonjourno: How to thread the needle and so on step by step. At age of 10, I was able to make a pair of pants already. 

[00:08:36] Miranda Black: that's just crazy. 

[00:08:37] Pasquale Buonjourno: Then I learned to work on the jackets, the pockets, 

[00:08:41] Miranda Black: like a nice pair of pants? 

[00:08:43] Pasquale Buonjourno: Nice pair of pants. Yeah. 

[00:08:44] Miranda Black: With a, a zipper? 

[00:08:45] Pasquale Buonjourno: We had two kinds... no buttons, buttons. Those days.

No zip there. We didn't know about the zipper for us in existed. Zipper back home. 

[00:08:52] Miranda Black: Right. So were you doing the button holes by hand? 

[00:08:55] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. Button holes by hand. And you did button holes by hand. Yeah. At 10 years old. Mm-hmm , 

[00:09:00] Miranda Black: that's incredible. 

[00:09:01] Pasquale Buonjourno: So at 17, I knew ready to, to make a jacket, to finish a jacket from scrap.

[00:09:07] Miranda Black: why are Italian tailors so good?

 Because they started at six, like me , you know, many how many tailors I met in all these years here, they were Italians, like from the towns near my own towns, like, whoever you talk to, they did the same routine like I did okay. I tell you why, because those days there was no other, opportunities. There was tailoring shoemakers, barber, and that's it.

[00:09:33] Miranda Black: Baker?

[00:09:33] Pasquale Buonjourno: There there's no baker. No, because there was only one bakery and it was the family itself doing the, the bread.

And this and that there was no employment for. But Shoemaker yes, because they used to fix the shoes and do for the farmers, they used to do the shoes too. 

[00:09:50] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:09:50] Pasquale Buonjourno: Made-to-measure shoes like, uh, 

[00:09:52] Miranda Black: for a farmer?

[00:09:54] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. For the farmers. Yeah. Those one, those ones, like with the steel on the, on the toe steel toe.

Yeah. Made to measure, for example, shoes, that kind yeah. Made to measure. They didn't put the steel, the steel toe, but I mean, heavy boots, like those ones, uh, oh yeah. They used to make it. 

[00:10:11] Miranda Black: Make it for you, like measure your scratch foot. 

[00:10:13] Pasquale Buonjourno: Made from scratch. Yeah. 

So like I say, tailoring barber, Shoemaker. and iron working like the iron. Those days they used to just to put the, the shoes to the horses or the donkey is in those days But the rest was zero. So there was tailor shops in small towns, like for example my town 3000 people. There was a period of time there was 21 tailor shops. Do you believe it? Small tailor shops you know.? I would like a, a small room like this, right. Just to go there and then make a suit or measurements. 

[00:10:50] Miranda Black: That's how everyone got their clothes. 

[00:10:52] Pasquale Buonjourno: And only one machine, only the iron, those ones with the, with carbon, you know, charcoal, the irons with the charcoal have you ever saw it?

[00:11:01] Miranda Black: Oh. Um.

[00:11:01] Pasquale Buonjourno: Even as you as a decoration somewhere. 

[00:11:04] Miranda Black: Yeah. You put a coal inside the iron and that's what makes the iron hot. 

[00:11:08] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah, that's right. 

[00:11:09] Miranda Black: Yeah. 

[00:11:10] Pasquale Buonjourno: That's what we used to 

[00:11:11] Miranda Black: I've read about it. 

[00:11:11] Pasquale Buonjourno: We used to do the fire outside like the charcoal, then put it to the iron and we used to, 

[00:11:17] Miranda Black: you gotta be careful with a white shirt, white shirt.

[00:11:21] Pasquale Buonjourno: It once happened once.  The fabric was the beautiful, how, you call it's a gray... it's called Grazalia in Italian. 

[00:11:29] Miranda Black: It's like a fancy, 

[00:11:30] Pasquale Buonjourno: very, yeah, very, very good quality. We made a suit for the father of the, of the groom.

I, I say correct groom? 

[00:11:37] Miranda Black: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:11:38] Pasquale Buonjourno: The father of the groom, we made the suit for him. So that morning the wedding was at 11 o'clock. I think was around the 9, 9 30 we finished his suit. I thank God was, the head tailor that he was ironing the pants. He, he ironed the jacket first and then he did the pants.

So the spark of the charcoal they went through the holes... you know, there was two lines of holes on the iron... and burn this side here with the sparkle, was all yellow. 

[00:12:07] Miranda Black: Oh no.

[00:12:07] Pasquale Buonjourno:  What he was, he was supposed to do. 

[00:12:08] Miranda Black: What did you do? 

[00:12:09] Pasquale Buonjourno: He wore the suit for that morning because in an hour they did the wedding. There's no other 

choice. 

[00:12:15] Miranda Black: And this is Southern Italy, right? 

[00:12:17] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. So then the master tailor,he knew, where they do the mending, like, in Milano. So , he sent the pants and , they did the mending, all this part here.

[00:12:28] Miranda Black: Wow. 

[00:12:29] Pasquale Buonjourno: They did the mending. They did a good job, but still the difference of the fabric, if it's not exactly from the same role of fabric. 

[00:12:37] Miranda Black: Yeah. 

[00:12:37] Pasquale Buonjourno: It's not exactly the same. 

[00:12:39] Miranda Black: Yeah. 

[00:12:39] Pasquale Buonjourno: the fabric was from another role of fabric, even though it was the same design,it's a different role. 

[00:12:45] Miranda Black: you might be surprised to know that still to this day made to measure and bespoke tailors have a lot number for the exact role your garment came from. So that for example, If you tear or stain your suit pants and you want a new pair to make the suit complete, they can get a replacement fabric from the exact dye lot your original suit was made from. 

Otherwise the pants that could be a slight shade off. Now, if you love the suit or you're trying to live more sustainably, maybe it doesn't matter so much anymore. And probably no one will notice. But traditionally it was a no-no to remake a pair of pants that didn't match up 100% with the original roll of fabric. 

 Little clothing tip here: at my store, I would take a chance and I would order a swatch from the manufacturer. And the client, and I would make a decision to move forward or not based on the swatch. So that's always an option if you don't want to waste a suit jacket.  But like I said before, it happens. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Those days you used to yeah. A lot of problems with the iron.what kind of responsibilities were you given at 10 years old?

 We have to be extra careful. Like when we open the seams or doing, 

[00:13:54] Miranda Black: were you nervous?

[00:13:55] Pasquale Buonjourno: No nervous. We didn't, uh, you know, we, we were children. We didn't care about these things. Whatever happened happened. Right. It's not, uh, 

[00:14:04] Miranda Black: Did you get paid to do this? 

[00:14:05] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, not even a penny. What are you talking about? Until 17 I didn't get a penny. There was a, they used to give a tip like a couple times a year, like Christmas, Easter.

[00:14:17] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:14:17] Pasquale Buonjourno: and they give it some tips, like 50 lira 100 lira depends the age, you know?

[00:14:23] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:14:24] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. But to go back to what I was telling about , the children, , each tailor shop, they had five, six children, all ages. From six years old, seven years old up to 16, 17 years old. At 16, 17 fly away.  That's why many tailors they came out. that period of time after the war, like, you know, 

And, a lot of youngsters we went for tailoring, because it was the cleanest one. Shoemaker used to get dirty, like, you know, 

right. with the wax, with this with that. You may get dirty. Barber, okay, you didn't get dirty, but it was a little bit complicated, you know, to do with the razor, , to shave this old people, like they used to come from farms. They used to come there and they were falling asleep and do the shavings and so on. The tailor was the cleanest one, in fact, we used to say, it's the cleanest one and it's clean the pocket too, because you don't make . 

[00:15:21] Miranda Black: You don't make money.

[00:15:22] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, no money.

 The only one did good the blacksmith, they went good because With the changing of the way all of our life, Italy went up, especially at the beginning of the sixties. Everybody

then they had car, everybody had the washing machine, a radio, TV, in the 50's the first few years, who had a TV? Nobody had a TV, So the economy grew up very Fastly, you know? 

[00:15:45] Miranda Black: Yeah. 

[00:15:45] Pasquale Buonjourno: And so the blacksmith, they didn't do anymore shoes for the horses or for the donkey.

They used to do railings, iron railings, and now they're very famous. They make good money with this job, even though it's, it's do a little bit dirty, you get, dirty to do it, but it's okay. Barber and barber okay they're still, uh, alive, but they don't make a big money.

Shoemaker is the same thing.

[00:16:07] Miranda Black: They always talk about child labor and there's children working 

[00:16:10] Pasquale Buonjourno: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:16:11] Miranda Black: What's the difference between 

[00:16:14] Pasquale Buonjourno:  I know about these things here, but I don't know if they gonna get paid these children in China, in Bangladesh.

And so on. In Italy it was the same thing like Italy, but we didn't get paid. Now even though it's a, a child labor, like, you know? Yeah. But they get paid. Instead of five, they give, they give them one.

We didn't get nothing at all. 

[00:16:35] Miranda Black: Did you feel like it was child labor at that time? 

[00:16:38] Pasquale Buonjourno: No. No. We didn't even know what, what meant, 

[00:16:40] Miranda Black: right? 

[00:16:41] Pasquale Buonjourno: that word. 

[00:16:42] Miranda Black: Yeah. 

[00:16:42] Pasquale Buonjourno: We didn't even know, with the, 

[00:16:43] Miranda Black: was it? 

[00:16:44] Pasquale Buonjourno: It was, it was against the law too. 

[00:16:47] Miranda Black: Oh, it was.

[00:16:47] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yes, because I remember every maybe every two years someone was coming a stranger from wherever to and master tailor.

Hurry. We up, hurry up, get out, get out from, from the back door. Like, 

[00:17:00] Miranda Black: oh my God, 

[00:17:00] Pasquale Buonjourno: because someone is coming to check out or whatever, you know, we didn't know, but we, we, we were happy to go to be free go out side and play, you know, we didn't care about, but was someone from government coming to check if there was a child labor, or whatever.

[00:17:16] Miranda Black: Huh. 

[00:17:16] Pasquale Buonjourno: But I repeat, we didn't get, we didn't know. We didn't care about, you know, we didn't expect us to, to, to get paid. Because we went there, from my, our own parents themselves, they, they pushed us to go there and

[00:17:31] Miranda Black: right. 

But just to stay there to, and to learn something like, you know, if you didn't learn many of them, they fail at, uh, 14, 15 they left without knowing anything. was anybody else in your family at tailor? 

[00:17:44] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, 

[00:17:45] Miranda Black: just you 

[00:17:45] Pasquale Buonjourno: mm-hmm 

[00:17:46] Miranda Black: you were the only one? Where did, 

and it was enough.

So how come your mother sent you to the tailor shop? Where did she send the other kids? 

[00:17:54] Pasquale Buonjourno: Okay. First of all, I was the youngest one Uhhuh. The last I was six. 

[00:18:00] Miranda Black: Oh, okay. 

[00:18:00] Pasquale Buonjourno: So the other ones, they grown up during the war, like mm-hmm I was born during, during the, the war, but they grown up, they were before the war.

[00:18:11] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:18:11] Pasquale Buonjourno: And they were born. So they live their childhood during the war, there was no many possibilities

 of one of them. They went for tailoring to, to learn anything, but he didn't like to stay there. Mm. He said, no, I prefer to go with construction.over there. They used to do the, the houses completely. It's not like, like here they use machinery they used to do everything themselves. Like they built from scrap, they built houses. Yeah. Right from scrap. They used to build houses, churches too.

Like all these 

[00:18:43] Miranda Black: oh wow. 

[00:18:43] Pasquale Buonjourno: Things with the, you know, both of, yeah. They used to decorated the church inside and outside the, so he was very good,

So going . Back to my mother, why she picked me because I was the young one and when I was growing, the war was over already. There was a lot of openings of businesses things they start to roll right back again and better.

Yeah. 

Like, you know, so, because I was delicate, I was not  that strong, that tall, they sent me to a tailor shop because I like to work. It was a clean work mm-hmm she didn't want me to get to get dirty with material where I worked working. So 

[00:19:20] Miranda Black: how, how long every day would it be? Was it five days a week? 

[00:19:24] Pasquale Buonjourno: Five days, seven days a week. 

[00:19:26] Miranda Black: even Sunday? 

[00:19:27] Pasquale Buonjourno: No. Six days. Six days. yeah, sometime Sunday. Yeah. Seven days. Sunday when we were busy, like, two times a year, Easter and Christmas were busy. We used to do the night too.

[00:19:39] Miranda Black: Oh, wow. 

[00:19:39] Pasquale Buonjourno: Sometimefor two, three weeks before Christmas, we were very busy and we used to do even work overnight 

[00:19:47] Miranda Black: all night. 

[00:19:48] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. 

[00:19:49] Miranda Black: To the morning. . 

[00:19:49] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah, well, but then, you know, the next day we were like, , feeling like a, a Roten a zombie, but we, as far we finished the, whatever we had to finish.

Right. 

Cause they were very particular, you know, care about, they wanted for, for Christmas they wanted for Christmas. 

[00:20:06] Miranda Black: Yeah.

even myself every year, Christmas, I used to make a suit for myself.

11, 12 years, up to 17 years old, I used to make a suit every time. 

[00:20:14] Miranda Black: Oh wow. 

[00:20:14] Pasquale Buonjourno: For myself, oh yeah, my mother, she bought me the fabric, a piece of fabric.

I used to make a you, 

[00:20:19] Miranda Black: Wait, they didn't even give you the fabric? You're working there for free? 

[00:20:21] Pasquale Buonjourno: Who? 

[00:20:21] Miranda Black: The master tailor. 

[00:20:23] Pasquale Buonjourno: They well, they, had to buy the fabric, they didn't have fabrics over there.

[00:20:26] Miranda Black: Oh, you would bring your own fabric? 

[00:20:28] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:20:29] Miranda Black: They didn't have fabric? 

[00:20:30] Pasquale Buonjourno: We used buy, no they used to go in a big city to buy the fabric from Milan, like 

[00:20:36] Miranda Black: right. 

[00:20:36] Pasquale Buonjourno: We had the books the books like, like you have the books here. Yeah. But they took two months before they send the fabric, you know? 

[00:20:43] Miranda Black: Oh, wow. 

[00:20:44] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. 

And so let me just get this straight in the tailor shop that you were working at, there were not like a whole bunch of fabrics. No, no, no, no, nothing. You know, it was just the shop. Just the, just the labor machine.

[00:20:58] Miranda Black: One table, one table, like this one machine sewing, a machine and, 

and a bunch of little kids. 

[00:21:04] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. A bunch of little kids, five, six chairs to sit around. That's it. That's what we had. The iron, one iron with, with charcoal for before. 

[00:21:12] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:21:13] Pasquale Buonjourno: After we bought electrical one... we bought, he bought the tailor must tailor.

[00:21:17] Miranda Black: Right. 

[00:21:17] Pasquale Buonjourno: He bought after happened that burn. Oh yeah. He bought, yeah, the electrical one. He probably had to give that guy some money back. I don't know. or he didnt get paid. What happened. I know he was very upset, but yeah, I don't know what happened, 

[00:21:32] Miranda Black: so were you 

[00:21:33] Pasquale Buonjourno: didn't get paid for it? 

[00:21:34] Miranda Black: All of the, so all of the tailor shop, there're 30 or so tailor shops in your little town. That's one for every hundred people. 

[00:21:42] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. For their relatives itself, they were already busy just with their relatives. Yeah. Yeah. Each and everyone. 

[00:21:49] Miranda Black: And they all had children working. 

[00:21:52] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Miranda Black: At all 30 of them. Would've had children working at them in no, 

[00:21:56] Pasquale Buonjourno: in our town, I would say an average age of five, five children, all ages.

Like, you know? Yeah. five by, by two, 10. Yeah. 60, 60, 70 kids from the town working town. Yeah. Working. 

[00:22:11] Miranda Black: And was that also at the Shoemaker? Were there children working at the Shoemaker and 

[00:22:16] Pasquale Buonjourno: yeah, just the Shoemaker. They were not a lot, three, four shoemakers. There was not a lot, but there is one thing, eh, that year that, there we were, 21 tailor shops, but then I come back 11 months, I went back home and there was none left.

They were all gone in a one year, in one less than one year. Yeah. 

[00:22:36] Miranda Black: What happened? 

[00:22:36] Pasquale Buonjourno: You mean like SARS? No, no, they, they went here who came here, who came in j who went in Germany, in Switzerland and in the states. We went around the world. Everybody left. Yeah. 

[00:22:49] Miranda Black: But what about the master tailor from your town? Where did he go?

[00:22:52] Pasquale Buonjourno: Only the four of them they stay. The older one, which they were the master tailors and they all these children like behind, only four of them they stayed there. Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Miranda Black: What happened? 

[00:23:03] Pasquale Buonjourno: Uh, 1, 2, 3, yeah. That's right. Four, four of them. There were four left.

[00:23:08] Miranda Black: Four tailors for the town? 

[00:23:10] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah, the older one. Not the older one. Yeah. , the disciples, like, you know, they, we used to say disciple disciples, 

[00:23:15] Miranda Black: oh yeah? 

Yeah. Uh, we went to, you know, fly away, right? there was another, another thing the schools they made mandatory the schools to be up to grade eight. Oh, this was when I, that year , I moved north. , they, up to grade eight Right. 

[00:23:32] Pasquale Buonjourno: So the young ones, they were growing with more opportunity of my period of time, right.

To go to high schools, and so on. 

[00:23:40] Miranda Black: It's only like a 10 year period. 

Yeah. was this a common practice in all the towns? Or was this common just to your town in the no, no hiring the children? 

[00:23:50] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, no. Everywhere. Everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. 

All, all throughout Italy, the children are all sewing and yeah, the mat, it was a boys only, or boys, girls, girls,

There is for, for women too Uhhuh, but they were just doing, um, dresses for women.

They didn't do for men. They didn't work for men they used to do for, like a dresses, the skirts, like, you know, this, these things.

[00:24:15] Miranda Black: Okay. So we had a little break. Stephanie had some cookies and Pasquale had some coffee and then we dove into his move from Italy, where he was working in tailor shops in Milan to Canada. 

[00:24:25] Pasquale Buonjourno:  

I spent seven years working of course, in tailor shops and military too. So then from there I took the ship Uhhuh to come in Canada. took a train to Montreal first. 

 the first train from Halifax to Montreal was a train. Like those ones they carried the ships or wherever. Was very, very old style train. What? Oh yeah, the cold was so cold, but because it was in January.

[00:24:50] Miranda Black: Oh God,

[00:24:51] Pasquale Buonjourno: it was so cold. You won't believe it. you see all white, everywhere from the east, the west, from north south, we were out of nowhere over there. That took us two days.

and then I arrived in Toronto.

[00:25:05] Miranda Black: Did you know anybody here? what made you think of coming to Canada? my older brother. he came to Canada Why, 

why Canada? Why did he come 

[00:25:13] Pasquale Buonjourno: to Canada? The mirage of, of gold.

Like, you know, those people, they used to go to California to find the gold . And so was America, America here, America there, because Canada, those days was not that known in Italy, , like, like today mm-hmm uh, they were talking about Canada there like it was a province of the states. Oh yeah. Was not Canada itself. Like , a country. Was still was an from the states. So every everybody , was talking about New York, New York. So

with the mirage of coming to make a better living. That's the reason we came here. Okay. I was single and my thing was to come here, make some money and then go back over there. 

[00:25:53] Miranda Black: Oh. And then leave and leave Canada?

[00:25:55] Pasquale Buonjourno: And leave Canada. But you know, thousand's of people, they were thinking that way, but nobody did it or just a few did it.

Because once you come here and you get, you know, no matter what, oh, it's too cold, there is too snowy or whatever, you still like to stay here. 

[00:26:11] Miranda Black: Why, why do you wanna stay here? 

Well, because I don't know.

I've been to Italy. It's way nicer. I know than 

[00:26:17] Pasquale Buonjourno: here, But in Italy, it's different. When you go as a tourist, when you go with your credit carding in your pocket, just to pay you didn't even know how much you spent , but if you go there to stay there, it's another story. First of all, politicians, they're a bunch of crooks, no matter who they are, no matter where from the south to north.

 once you get used to here, for example, you go some aware, you make a line, everybody nice and quiet stay line up over there, forget it to line up.

[00:26:47] Pasquale Buonjourno: Always comes to the other guy that goes in the front, say, oh yeah. Have to, just to say so thinking blah, blah. And meanwhile, That's an not fair. And you get mad, you know, say what. Like in Canada doesn't exist these things yet we have line up, have to wait my turn to get inside or to do this, or to do that.

 I remember onceI needed the, something like I remember now. Oh, to clear my, to clear my 

[00:27:11] Miranda Black: parking tickets?

[00:27:12] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, that I'm fine. I'm okay. I don't have problems with the law.

What do they call it here? 

[00:27:18] Miranda Black: Like you're bonded or they're verifying that. You're a good person. Yeah. Yeah. No crimes. 

[00:27:24] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah, no crimes.

now to do these things, they don't do it at a small town. You have to go another bigger city.

so I went therewith a bus uh, okay. What I can do for you. I need this, this, this, and this and this. Okay. It's gonna be ready in a few days. So I went two days after and I found this, this employee with his feet on the table.

I can with the newspaper spread in front of him reading. Yes. What I can do for you. I say, I'm the guy, but now don't remember if it was the same guy or was somebody else. Anyway, because I needed this, this, this told me to come in a few days. So now it's two days already. Oh, uh, wait. , it's not sent yet from, , the, an higher person like, you know, okay.

Where where's this person you you're going to I say, make him sign. No, it's not. Uh, now it's our lunch. When he comes back, we have to come back tomorrow. I say, no, I say, listen, I'm not living here in this town here. I'm living in another town. I say, when I driving, I say my own hometown, I cannot come here tomorrow again, spend another three days for a document like, 

bA bapa, listen, I say, or you gonna do a sign now make it, whoever has to do it to say, oh, I'm are gonna explode the here. Say just I gonna explode. Okay. God, this is boss

I told him preneur boss. So you stay there with, with your feet on the table, reading the newspaper and make people coming 3, 4, 5 days for a document, which takes only a few minutes. Millions of these stories. in Canada. I've been working always with the, with almost the best of, of tailoring.

Like my first job was on Eglington and Avenue road, Mrs. Pierce fashion designers, , this was back in 1960. we used to do dresses, over coats for ladies, rich people. And then I went, 

[00:29:12] Miranda Black: that was your first job. My first job in Canada

Then I went to work a couple of years in, , a factory downtown,, Pacific garment.

[00:29:21] Miranda Black: Pacific garment. Yeah. Was it 

[00:29:23] Pasquale Buonjourno: on Spadina? then I went for another. Learning to how to use the patterns, like pattern maker, From there, I went back to ladies again, because there was a recession over the eighties. Mm-hmm there was not much work anymore. So I found another job for ladies again, downtown Mr.

Leonard, Mr. Leonard. In those days it was very popular. We used to do, 

[00:29:46] Miranda Black: yeah. I've heard of that too. 

[00:29:47] Pasquale Buonjourno: Uh, ladies jackets and skirt pants for, Sears for, eat on. Wow. You know, they all did them 

like, 

[00:29:56] Miranda Black: so you were making a lot of the garments that was this mass produced stuff 

[00:30:02] Pasquale Buonjourno: yeah.

Yeah. It was mass mass produced 

[00:30:04] Miranda Black: mass produced. Yeah. So the stuff that people were buying at Eaton's and The Bay, Sears, and The Bay Sears, it was made right around the corner here? That's. 

We used to make, um, even anyt, like, the t-shirts or whatever. They used to do that for a ladies, 

[00:30:23] Miranda Black: wow. What did they make the fabric here in Canada? Or did they ship the fabric? Do you know where they got the fabric?

[00:30:30] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, but the fabric kind of

mostly over the fabrics, they used to come from, I Italy the best ones, but then, you know, there was from England, from Spain, from, uh, they used to come the fabrics here. 

[00:30:39] Miranda Black: . And then you would cut it and assemble it and make it here. 

So when you arrived, Spadina was filled with factories.

[00:30:49] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. Each and every door was factory factory factory, everywhere. Spadina from college to, to king and maybe more the king and from ad lady from, from brothers to, to young street to was old factories along king, along so on all the streets.

[00:31:05] Miranda Black: I just can't imagine what Toronto's like with all these factories. Like people just coming home from the factory all over the place. Yeah. That's what, like in your factory, there was 500 workers. 

[00:31:16] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah. And in the factory next door, there's another, the street cars. The bus is a very full of, of working class people.

[00:31:23] Miranda Black: and then it just starts to, it starts to disappear. 

[00:31:26] Pasquale Buonjourno: I went back, To Spadina and Adelaide to buy a coat for my wife, which I used to go before, when I was working there and I couldn't find enough factories anymore.

And that was in the eighties. 

[00:31:39] Pasquale Buonjourno: yeah, the end of the eighties. there to start to be realization, start to cut. Yeah. in my life, since I was here in Canada, I never had the problems to find a job.

Yeah. I went out from that door. I entered from, from another door. Yeah. You know, it was very easy, but that, that, that period of time was very bad for three years. I couldn't find a job anywhere. Just part time he and parttime there just to keep going, you know? Yeah. And then finally, in 1992, I, I went to Harry Rosen.

Ah, they hired me at Terry Rosen. 

[00:32:12] Miranda Black: Had you known about Harry Rosen before? Mmm, 

no, I had a question about the recession, Was it a, a similar time to right now how people are just, it's a struggle? Uh, 

[00:32:25] Pasquale Buonjourno: I don't know. I don't know what you think I was.

I did. I mean, I wanted to work. I went around to find the jobs and I remember there was a period of. I didn't have the car. I went with the bus 

But was, was very tough. Was very tough. Uh, to be honest, right. I told you was the only period of time I didn't ever, I 

 I just, I arranged here and there wherever I found. Yeah. Finally then I went to Yorkdale and to knock the door, Harry Rosen and they give me the card. They say, call this guy,This is retailer in charge. Call him and ask , if he needs a tailor. So I called him say no, Pasquale , I'm sorry. But right now , we don't have openings, so, okay.

Say, give me your phone number. If I need you. I may call you after a year. 

[00:33:09] Miranda Black: Oh wow. 

[00:33:10] Pasquale Buonjourno: He called me after a year. He called me say, are you still available?

Blah, blah, blah. Say then when you are available tomorrow, you go to Bloorand blah, and talk with Santo, Santo Grande.

There he's in charge over there. That's a great, so I went to that. I speak with Santo Grande than, okay. They give me the job, even though I start with $2 cheaper.

Oh, wow. $2 cheaper that, that time, but you knew that, but I, at least I knew that it was a biggest store 

[00:33:38] Miranda Black: Like I said before, there's many other, they were closing down, And so I say, I, to accept better, you know, Right now people value tailor because they're very, there's not many tailors and the work is very specific. Mm 

[00:33:56] Pasquale Buonjourno: no, you're telling me just yesterday. I, I did the alteration to, a jacket, the way they are doing it. Now, the things they going worse and worse and worse, not that way they are made it's it's well made, but the, the, the details of the, even the lining itself, for example, if you notice inside there's a, a pleat in the lining.

Yeah. In, on the back part of the lining, there's a pleat. Now they, they did it like, uh, how you call it folded to the print way, which it's crazy to, to, if you have to let out or take in, especially if you have to take in the sides like, or the center seam, it's a mess to fix the lining inside there. You have to leave or you have to leave it the way it's open the way it is it.

I don't even know how to explain myself to the way they are made. The detailing. I don't know what's what's going on. If they are the new tailors that they're in factory I'm talking about or, or the new fashion designers.

Right. They, they, I don't know. They tell the tailors how to do the things. I don't know. I don't know. And it's something really to get crazy over there. Right. And you've noticed, I said, thank God, I'm I'm old. So I gonna retire very soon. I'm sick and tired of, of working the tailoring anymore. 

[00:35:11] Miranda Black: So it's getting more and more 

[00:35:13] Pasquale Buonjourno: complicated, more and more, more complicated.

And the tailors there, they don't have the experience. Like we used to be my generation and the older generations, like mm-hmm, So let's say, that's the story? 25 or now, 28 years with Harry Rosen. 

[00:35:27] Miranda Black: So that kind of saved you getting into Rosens. 

[00:35:31] Pasquale Buonjourno: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. 

 So we didn't what we didn't talk about. You didn't ask me questions about bespoke. 

Yeah, we haven't even mentioned. in 1995, Harry Rosen himself he wanted to open up bespoke tailor shop.

Everybody was against that. He was the only one insisted he wanted a tailor shop. they hire a design up, a pattern maker.

and Nello Sansone started search among the tailors who was willing to switch from alteration to bespoke. 

[00:36:01] Miranda Black: And you knew bespoke from back in Italy, , that would be called bespoke what you're doing.

[00:36:06] Pasquale Buonjourno: That's right. 

[00:36:07] Miranda Black: For the farmers and towns, people that was bespoke work that's that's right.

[00:36:11] Pasquale Buonjourno: when he came to me. He Pasquale, can I talk to you? Sure. I say, well, go ahead. I'm asking all the tailors of, Harry Rosen who wants to switch into the bespoke program. Everybody refused. Why? Because they were afraid that will not succeed. 

they thought maybe they're gonna lose the job, 

So everybody refused, worry about you. You wanna. before I, I put an announcement on the newspaper. 

I say, listen, I'm working here now 2 years. Trying it doesn't cost me nothing.

I say, let me try. If you are happy, I gonna stay here. If not, I go back to the alteration. That's what happened. It starts from there. Harry Rosen he succeed. He did it 

[00:36:51] Miranda Black: can you remember . A story that's memorable of working on something for somebody important.

[00:36:59] Pasquale Buonjourno: I did the, a velvet uh, a green.

Teal. I, I know a green, a green bottle bottle green, see bottle green. You see the bottles of the wine? The green one. Yeah. Yeah. Very dark bottle green bottle. Yeah. So it was a velvet and I made it jacket for the actor, a very famous actor. Hmm. You see, now you think it comes to my mind? The actor made the sound of music.

[00:37:21] Miranda Black: I've never seen it, but I'm gonna pull a name outta my hat. Christopher plumber? 

[00:37:25] Pasquale Buonjourno: Oh, that yes. I have the picture into my bag, still into my bag. My lunch bag. I have the picture of him in the jacket. Yeah. Wearing it at the jacket. That's the very famous person I did another guy was, uh,

I don't remember his name, but he was in a wheelchair. He's a very famous pianista in a wheelchair piano player. He's a black guy. 

[00:37:48] Miranda Black: Stevie wonder? 

[00:37:49] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, no. Stevie wonders a blind. I know he, I know Stevie.

 A Raptor player. , it was very tall. , we made a lot suits for him. this guy spent over $100,000 codes suits and this and that you can believe it. What, , I remember I made for him a jacket with, Python, Python designs, like leather.

Wow. Leather, Python, leather, Wow. That was, was beautiful in anyway, 

it was fancy was a fancy guy. Anyway, he spent almost one, $100,000. 

[00:38:20] Miranda Black: so these days people don't seem to know the difference between, a custom suit. Now you can. Put in some measurements in the computer and, they call it bespoke. But it's not really, but nobody seems to care as long as they've picked the lining.

What is the biggest, difference between an offthe rack suit and a bespoke suit,

[00:38:43] Pasquale Buonjourno: it's because we take the measurements on, on the customer and then we make it from a scrap. We make everything ourselves. You don't have to send it to a factory.

the quality it's much better bespoke because should last longer. Okay. Maybe it's a, a controversy, like for the business, because less, they gonna last better. You can you can sell them more,

I have suits were 20 years ago, even. Now they use them because the Lapelle, it's a little bit too wide or the pants are not, you know, and so on, but they never tear apart because they've been made with the knowledge with the, , you know what I mean?

You have good ones. Good quality. 

Zegna, Armani 

And Brioni it's well  made the too. But then there there's a bunch of other stuff. Like they are very, very cheap,

They use cheap lining. They use cheaper threads. 

Even though the look seems to be perfect. 

boss changed a little, the lining before boss used the lining. Very cheap lining you while you're pressing it already, it shrinks like. Used to shrink. Now that they're using a better lining, eventually, I don't know there was a complaint or because the, the lining was very cheap.

They used,

[00:39:52] Stephanie Almeida: but you're right. That term bespoke gets used. Loosely. If I had a, nickel for every time someone has confused them, Yeah. And I don't know if it even matters anymore I think the knowledge of the craft has dwindled or has been lost a little bit and people don't see the value or understand the craftsmanship like they used to.

Yeah. Um, I think price point is also a big one. Yeah. Suits are very expensive.

[00:40:22] Miranda Black: that's shocking that the farmers used to come and get bespoke shoes and bespoke clothing. And now, like, can you imagine a farmer now getting a bespoke pair of shoes or a bespoke suit so expensive?

[00:40:33] Pasquale Buonjourno: No, no, no way.

There's another thing.

when we started with bespoke,

okay. Even though they were all against, but once we started , roll up the business, the sales, people, they were happy to sell the suits. but then what happened? They start to complain because they have to wait too long. yeah. And start to sell less, less, less every time,

 little, be little, the customers complaining, cuz it takes too long or 

no, no,

most of them, they didn't care 

 they pass by, they ordered 2, 3, 4 suits and then they come back, for the first tray on and they, them for the second tray on and piping and Papa, you know, it takes time the sales people.

They don't like most of them, they don't like to bother the customer. 

Most of the time, it's the salesman. They, they complain not the customers.

[00:41:19] Miranda Black: And that's it. My device ran out of battery, which I didn't know at the time it's a bit heartbreaking, but that's the life of one garment worker out of tens of thousands who risk it all and come to Canada for a better life. You know, I, I can't for the life of me reconcile the image, people try and push out of. 

Immigrants as a drain on society. Every interaction I had as a business owner with a newcomer to this massively spacious wealthy country has been one of all an inspiration. when I hear governments opening their doors to people from other countries, I think how lucky we are to be able to welcome people who are striving for better lives. 

So often they are the building blocks of the stories behind the bricks and mortar of small business. And. In regards to my own store. After a couple of weeks, my father, he stopped showing up every day because I was doing it. I hired people who had never, usually bigger than a chance in men's wear, but they were hungry to learn. Like I was. 

I read countless articles on men's style. Books on how to retain good employees, even in retail, not an easy task. E-commerce was born. I iPhones were invented. I got written And magazines. People came to me for menswear advice and I took all of your questions so seriously and had an immense gratitude to everyone who shopped and supported my little family owned business. 

Uh, more importantly, I built relationships that will last the rest of my life, which I never would have had without Theodore 1922. And every Christmas. We would get a plate of fresh Baked cookies from Mrs. Bum journo. It was my Christmas highlight and all of us would look forward 

Unfortunately. Pasquale's wife passed away earlier this year, and I wish so much. I had created this episode. For her to hear. To be able to thank her for her jars of sauce, her plates, uh, cookies. Her carefully wrapped presents for all my son's birthdays. 

It took a lot longer than five years to pay my father back. But when I closed the store, I gave him a check for every penny of the outstanding balance on that original loan. And the fact that I was able to do that. I was all because of this man. Pasquale Bonjourno. Who took a chance and stuck with going to get through this Despite the fact that I knew next to nothing. Thank you. Pasquale this episode. Dedicated to you. 

Please join me next time. When I do a veeery spooky Halloween episode. All about how to be more aware of your costume candy and decoration waste. If you liked this episode, I would love for you to give it a review, or if you have any questions about tailoring. Business ownership, living sustainably, or if you're walking down the street and you see a store and you think, Hey, what's this 

Email meMiranda@theaterinnineteentwentytwo.com. 

. Going to start reading some of the mail I received on the next I will see you then.